Curse

Thenameless Wonder · Mar 22, 2012, 01:45 AM // 01:45

This guide is still in progress and I have not been able to implement and finish the entire guide. I know it isn't a "guide" yet because I haven't finished out typing that part

Thanks for your patience while I complete this!

Index:

Offensive Builds (Overview) : Ctrl+F "i1"
Defensive Builds (Overview) : Ctrl+F "i2"

This guide assumes you are knowledgeable about Guild Wars in general. You have been playing for a while and are comfortable about the professions strengths and weaknesses (although these will be explained). I assume you have access to the 7hero content (mercenary heroes) although I will provide leway for players who don't purchase this. I am also a sole supporter of NO-MICRO heroes. I believe if you have the right set-up, you can create fantastic team builds where all you worry about is YOURSELF.

To begin the fabulous journey of making your team build, you must first ask yourself these questions:

What is this build being used for?
Is my focus on offense, defense, or balanced?
Does my teambuild (no matter how fantastic the idea) work in PvE?

Many factors play into the decision of the overall build. If your builds are meant to roll through dungeons with ease, a general thought would be to bring sufficient defense to aid you on your journey. Likewise, using a vanquish build, bring speed boosts will greatly assist you.

Not us first look at good builds but recognize the bad ones. In this manner, you can see yourself where the faults lie and learn. Click below to load a fictitious teambuild I made. Can you tell me whats wrong?

Before I tell you what is bad, I will explain that there are some good things about this teambuild.

Now here what is bad about the teambuild:

i1
OFFENSIVE BUILDS: SPIKES

This first team build was clearly a build used to spike. Or otherwise known to inflict fast packets of high damage quickly to take the enemy down. Spike builds take advantage of niches within the game. Commonly seen in HA (or infrequently now) were these spike builds. An example; one team build was the "Invoke Ele" spike which had 8 elementalists with Ride the Lightning as their elite skill and other air magic skills. The idea behind the build was simple: prevent the other team from ressurecting with Frozen Soil and with coordination, run in and spike 2-3 targets, focus-firing and hopefully killing them. Sadly for these builds, they didn't work very well, well-coordinated team saw this in advance and protected their team (among other things) and won.

Builds such as spike builds pack a powerhouse of offensive skills but almost always lack healing or defense. If certain conditions are met; ex. all of the players are balled up and stationary (as the case for my first team build), then the enemy is pretty much dead after 3 seconds of fire magic. However, if these conditions fail to satisfy, if the enemy is spread out, the skills are less effective and nothing dies. This idea rides behind the AoE spike. AoE spikes are builds utilizing AoE spells that damage multiple opponents. Some different AoE spikes could utilize Energy Surge, Invoke Lightning, Shockwave, Searing Flames, Destructive was Glaive, Ineptitude, Keystone Signet, Icy Veins, Ravenous Gaze and Feast of Corruption.

TeamBuilds that use spells as their main form of damage (in the case of an AoE spike) are usually very powerful but again, lack defense or sufficient healing.

Now here is another teambuild, this time instead of using a spell-spike, will focus more on physical damage.

Again, here are the good things about this build:

The bad aspects of this build:

This build can take down most of what it is given but lacks forms of protection, especially against dangerous hexes such as Panic, or Ineptitude.

OFFENSIVE BUILDS: SPIKES: GENERAL CONCLUSION

Builds that are focused on offensive will have

High damage output
Lack defense or healing

Be able to kill quickly at the cost of defense or healing

i2
DEFENSIVE BUILDS: PRESSURE

Polar opposite to the offensive builds are defensive builds. Instead of focusing on spikes, the defensive build focuses on pressure. Because the defensive build is able to resist and defend against most attacks, as most of the skills are used for this case, the team must rely on pressure (hexes, conditions, energy denial) to win the battle. The immediate pro to using a defensive build is you can clear out any area with it, it will just take 3x longer than a spike build. The immediate problem with this idea is PvE is not meant to be played (I do not play PvE with pressure builds) most commonly with pressure teambuilds. Factions has a time limits on their missions as do some Prophecies and Nightfall missions. It is hinted quite clearly that you need to get from point A to point B as fast as possible; defensive builds go against this and stall out the battle to gain the upper hand. While not in my mindframe to create some defensive builds, I will do my best.

Please forgive my lack of knowledge towards the paragon class, for it has been the class I so rarely play, but bear with me as we look at this defensive teambuild:

Good facets of this teambuild:

Bad things about this teambuild:

Pressure (or defensive teambuilds) exist in two forms (similarly to offensive builds). One type of defensive teambuild is the teambuild that can handle any attack thats thrown against it, as is the case with the above build, but does not have sufficient damage to kill the enemy. Like I said earlier, these builds are more oriented towards PvP where stalling is a good strategy, not the most effective or quickest strategy in PvE. The other type of defensive teambuild involve niches as explained earlier with the first build. ( If the heroes are free to cast their spells and the enemy stays all balled up, then you have won the battle ). Niche teambuilds can be used and I am in no means trying to undermine them, however, as long as they are tailored for a very specific area and nothing else, they can be very effective. The teambuild below is a fair example of a niche, defensed focused teambuild.

Good things about this teambuild:

However, my cons to the build are more than obvious:

DEFENSIVE BUILDS: PRESSURE: CONCLUSION

It seems that while defensive teambuilds are the more sturdy of the two types looked at thus far, it can lack offense at the cost of damage, or in the case of being too specialized.

Therefore, defensive teambuilds:

Pack the muscle to withstand an assault
Oftentimes lack the punch to KO an enemy

Now that the two types of specialized (being specialized in offense or defense) teambuilds have been discussed, before moving on to the last type, I will discuss the skills of the game.

SKILLS TO USE

Now, many many skills exist in guild wars. All skills are not equal! Good and both bad skills are there in the game. This is not meant to be a troll topic but is merely my opinion and will be backed up by support. Most commonly, a build will be focused around a particular skill, this skill being the elite skill on the bar. To help decide your elite skill, you must first recognize the purpose of the bar (to interupt, damage, etc) and compress your skill bar. Compression skills are defined as follows; skills that do more than one thing. Compressed skills are highly sought out in team builds because they are effective at putting two different skills in one (not literally of course). Take the obvious skill Signet of Spirits, in one skill it can summon three spirits. In addition it has no energy cost which is a definite plus.
Unyielding Aura can instantly ressurect a team member while providing a bonus to the monk's healing ability. The most effective compression skills are found in most meta-rated PvX team builds and for good reason. I will further explain the elite skills to assist you in making your best teambuild.

Again please be aware that this is my opinion and does not reflect the actual intentions of the skill designers or is intended to offend anyone and their build. This is for education purposes in looking at which skills are more effective than others. Once again, these are my opinions on skill choices and should have no impact on the way you decide to build your teambuild. Some of these elites aren't the very best out there but I have opened my eyes to the different possiblities by which some of these elites run. In addition, not all elites are listed in the following pictures.

If you wish to look at the skills please click below

WARRIOR ELITE'S

Warrior's are the class that is the most sturdedly build (along with paragons). With this in mind, warrior's main purpose is to soak up damage. Warriors can do other things as well but with the most efficiency, warriors can tank. The elite skills reflect this and their explanations are below.

Good Elites

Bad Elites

RANGER ELITE'S

Rangers have been called the jack of all trades but masters at none. This is true to the feel of rangers as they can inflict conditions, spike, and interupt quite easily with their skills. The elite skills that I have chosen reflect their versitality.

Good Elites

Bad Elites

MONK ELITE'S

Monks are quite obviously the class that is meant to heal (as it was designed). However monks can go damage if they so choose, but their main bunch of skills is handled to heal and protect their team.

Good Elites

Bad Elites

NECROMANCER ELITE'S

Necromancers have a bundle of great elite skills. Necromancers can manipulate bosses, inflict AoE damage, and create walls of minions.

Good Elites

Bad Elites

MESMER ELITE'S

Mesmers are the best caster class at interupting and punishing the enemy. Their set of elite skills is shown by this and which is why mesmers are so highly prized by many players.

Good Elites

Bad Elites

ELEMENTALIST ELITE'S

Elementalists are useful in different situations. With air magic, elementalists are useful in single targets, with fire magic, multiple targets. Earth magic are more about defense and water magic focuses on hexes.

Good Elites

Bad Elites

ASSASSIN ELITE'S

Assassins are best known to spike and shut down enemies. Fairly good skills will cause good damage or apply daze or blind to enemies.

Good Elites

Bad Elites

RITUALIST ELITE'S

Ritualists are seen as a support class. With few common used damage skills do not be fooled, ritualists can play both roles.

Good Elites

Bad Elites

PARAGON ELITE'S

Paragon's are seen as the class that is never in any teambuilds. I'm here to show that there are many elites that are useful for paragons and the least amount of bad elites thus far.

Good Elites

Bad Elites

DERVISH ELITE'S

Dervishes are masters at AoE melee damage. Coupled with their newly buffed enchantments, they wreak havoc on enemies.

Good Elites

Bad Elites

UNDERSTANDING THE TYPES OF HEROES

Here we must talk about hybrids and dedicated heroes. Let me further explain. To be efficient in any area of PvE, a complete understanding of dedicated and hybrid heroes is necessary for success.

Dedicated = single profession
Hybrid = dual professions

In a more basic sense, dedicated heroes are either offensive or defensive while hybrid heroes are balanced. Let me explain with two build examples (no pictures this time). Commonly referred to as an "ST" is a Soul Twisting ritualist with Union, Shelter and Displacement. This ritualist can also have Boon of Creation as well as three other skills. Now, if these three other skills were to be within the ritualist skill set, this hero would be dedicated, or dedicated to being a ritualist. The obvious pro to being dedicated is being the best you can be, while using the attributes you are currently in. A "ST" ritualist is a dedicated defense hero. If these last three skill slots are of another profession, say monk, then the hero would become a hybrid, losing some efficiency at being a "ST" and more efficiency towards acting like a monk. Briefly glance at these four builds and deduce which of the last three you would believe to be the most effective.

In truth, I cannot answer this question, because your answer may depend on your teambuild. If I were to answer I would go with the third hero build. A build already focused on defense makes sense to put defense skills on its bar as well. You see, the basis of making teambuilds are these small decisions, do I go with an mix of offense, defense or balance? Do I sacrifice cracked armor and stronger spirits with a ward or do I choose to replace it with poison? This is where I will lead to lastly: synergy.

SKILL SYNERGY

At the core of build making lies this very fancy word; synergy. With synergy comes success. Let us define synergy as working together efficiently.

Pimpmuckl · Mar 22, 2012, 11:24 AM // 11:24

Please go ahead and continue working on this guide, look's great so far!

DRGN · Mar 22, 2012, 04:45 PM // 16:45

I think at least half of the "good" elites you listed for each class belong in bad instead. Like, Arcane Langour in PvE? Shroud of Silence and Seeping Wound, skills that were nerfed into oblivion long ago? Soul Bind for "pressure"? The AI monks in this game are so awful in this game that you can just murder their faces off in a few seconds instead of wasting time "pressuring" them.

Andemius · Mar 22, 2012, 04:52 PM // 16:52

I'm not realy sure what the thinking is behind this other than "These are good skills, these are not".

Didn't see much actual help with building a team.

Thenameless Wonder · Mar 22, 2012, 05:14 PM // 17:14

@Hunter - Yes I do sometimes.
@Pimpmuckl - Thank you! It is still coming along.
@Gabs88 - ... Thank you for your constructive criticism.
@DRGN - I haven't finished the guide yet so you will have to wait for a complete thread that answers your question.
@Andemius - (same as @DRGN)

Rollie · Mar 22, 2012, 05:22 PM // 17:22

How effective is the mass ranger spike build btw? (been using casters to long) I've always wanted to use multi ranger build but never did it

Thenameless Wonder · Mar 22, 2012, 05:36 PM // 17:36

The problems with this build are:

12 interupts is a bit too many skills to equip to have sufficient interupts, is it not? Is there a more effective skill? < Panic
While utilizing many good aspects, this build lacks hex removal and would most certainly fall apart especially if the elementalist and/or necromancer should die. Convert Hexes is a good choice.
A single healer is not capable of supporting an entire party, especially in HM. Multiple healers (although not needed to be dedicated healers) are necessary.
A minimum of 2 resurrection skills is recommended for a full party of 8 members. Relying on more than one party member to bring a ressurect is ideal, but too many can sacrifice efficiency in a team build.

Too many skills are being used for interupts and multiple condition skills are redundant to bring. The support (heals) for this class is very fragile.
(Negative points are in bold)

Fix those and you should have a good build

Otherwise its an petfest of furry beasts rolling through everythin

Gabs88 · Mar 22, 2012, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Really dude, are you just trying to troll?

SoS in "Good Elites" and Spirits Strength in Great? And Soul Leech in great? Not to talk about spoil victor listed as top tier? And thats just a few of them.

Red tape this shit, this thread is a big wall of text written by someone who doesn't have a single clue about what he's talking about. You started off bad and it just went one way, down hill. And zealous vow listed as the only BAD dervish elite?...

Seriously don't even know what to say by this point, this thread is pure raw trololololololol.

Kunder · Mar 22, 2012, 07:54 PM // 19:54

This is literally 100% useless for anyone. Even ignoring a few highly questionable skill choices (and by highly questionable I mean retarded beyond doubt of anyone who has played GW), your "advice" simplifies down to little more than "use these skills for stuff". Absolutely no discussion of the theory, relative tradeoffs, minimum parameters dependent on area, etc.

Thenameless Wonder · Mar 22, 2012, 07:57 PM // 19:57

@ Kunder - I am still writing this guide, it is not done yet. Don't worry I'm not close to being finished yet alright

Vernphos · Mar 22, 2012, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thenameless Wonder

@ Kunder - I am still writing this guide, it is not done yet. Don't worry I'm not close to being finished yet alright

Might just want to stop at this point. You seem to be getting shelled.

The task of refining and isolating the best team build could fill this entire forum.

You're not going to be able to do much more than give it a general overall view, and that has been done in several stickies.

Some people (cough you know who you are cough) are going to just take pop shots at you all day long...

HigherMinion · Mar 22, 2012, 08:24 PM // 20:24

The spoilers are amazing. I can't wait to see your opinion on necromancer elites!

Thenameless Wonder · Mar 22, 2012, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vernphos

Might just want to stop at this point. You seem to be getting shelled.

The task of refining and isolating the best team build could fill this entire forum.

You're not going to be able to do much more than give it a general overall view, and that has been done in several stickies.

Some people (cough you know who you are cough) are going to just take pop shots at you all day long...

I may be not clear, it is about "your" teambuild, not "the perfect" teambuild.

I am still writing the guide and fixing it up, in the end it will be what I am for it to be: a guide on how to create "your" best 7h teambuild. It is not meant to give you the build, more on the process of creating one. 1) understanding types of builds. 2) understanding professions/elites. 3) understanding formats of skill bars. etc

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

The spoilers are amazing. I can't wait to see your opinion on necromancer elites!

Denar · Mar 22, 2012, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thenameless Wonder

I think he was being sarcastic.

I don't understand why you say things like Warriors are built to tank, not be a damage-dealer, and that Defy Pain therefore is a good elite. This just encourages bad play we see from PUG wars. The list of what constitutes good and bad profession elites seems HIGHLY subjective (I agree, that a lot of elites are just useless/underpowered compared to others), but for a lot of them, if you've managed to get it into the correct category, you've given absurd reasons. Mist form could be useful for an elementalist healer build? "TPiY!" is not used for energy-management, it's used for triggering and refreshing echoes/refrains on the entire party every 3 seconds. Spirit's Strength is good for people "who want to be creative"? I thought this was supposed to be about what's effective, not what helps you roleplay. Half of the elites shouldn't be "good", because they're single-target and thus not very effective in PvE (I'm looking at you, Arcane Languor, Migraine, Seeping Wound, Crippling Anguish, Spoil Victor...) I could go on and on, but I think you get the point.

bleh · Mar 23, 2012, 01:00 AM // 01:00

I won't judge since it aint finished, but its certainly growing fast.

My only niggle is that some of the wording is very black and white.
I.E. Warr = tank. But in battle... the Warr gets ignored by AI mostly because of high armour, making them very effective at spamming cleave for example.
(+ everyone is gonna whine about assasins and rangers and monks ect..)

I like the explanations at the start though "why not to bring Savannah x6".
thats a good way for general users to understand the basics of balance.

Goodluck, thanks for the effort.

Thenameless Wonder · Mar 23, 2012, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denar

I think he was being sarcastic.

I don't understand why you say things like Warriors are built to tank, not be a damage-dealer, and that Defy Pain therefore is a good elite. This just encourages bad play we see from PUG wars. The list of what constitutes good and bad profession elites seems HIGHLY subjective (I agree, that a lot of elites are just useless/underpowered compared to others), but for a lot of them, if you've managed to get it into the correct category, you've given absurd reasons. Mist form could be useful for an elementalist healer build? "TPiY!" is not used for energy-management, it's used for triggering and refreshing echoes/refrains on the entire party every 3 seconds. Spirit's Strength is good for people "who want to be creative"? I thought this was supposed to be about what's effective, not what helps you roleplay. Half of the elites shouldn't be "good", because they're single-target and thus not very effective in PvE (I'm looking at you, Arcane Languor, Migraine, Seeping Wound, Crippling Anguish, Spoil Victor...) I could go on and on, but I think you get the point.

As I am getting more and more feedback on my unfinished thread I am seeing a general attitude that revolves around "these aren't the best choices so why are you saying they are?" am I wrong? I just want to make sure I am reading your comment correctly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bleh

I won't judge since it aint finished, but its certainly growing fast.

My only niggle is that some of the wording is very black and white.
I.E. Warr = tank. But in battle... the Warr gets ignored by AI mostly because of high armour, making them very effective at spamming cleave for example.
(+ everyone is gonna whine about assasins and rangers and monks ect..)

I like the explanations at the start though "why not to bring Savannah x6".
thats a good way for general users to understand the basics of balance.

Goodluck, thanks for the effort.

Again, I am not finished with this thread

. I may need to fully finish this before I ever post again haha.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bleh

Goodluck, thanks for the effort.

THANK YOU! Just trying to help others out

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denar

I think he was being sarcastic.

I don't understand why you say things like Warriors are built to tank, not be a damage-dealer, and that Defy Pain therefore is a good elite. This just encourages bad play we see from PUG wars. The list of what constitutes good and bad profession elites seems HIGHLY subjective (I agree, that a lot of elites are just useless/underpowered compared to others), but for a lot of them, if you've managed to get it into the correct category, you've given absurd reasons. Mist form could be useful for an elementalist healer build? "TPiY!" is not used for energy-management, it's used for triggering and refreshing echoes/refrains on the entire party every 3 seconds. Spirit's Strength is good for people "who want to be creative"? I thought this was supposed to be about what's effective, not what helps you roleplay. Half of the elites shouldn't be "good", because they're single-target and thus not very effective in PvE (I'm looking at you, Arcane Languor, Migraine, Seeping Wound, Crippling Anguish, Spoil Victor...) I could go on and on, but I think you get the point.

Hello Denar, yes, I would agree that some elites arent elite but in fact par elite. As I say this with everyone my thread is not finished yet

. I use an AoE based spike build in HM PvE and it rolls through everything. Insisting, Discord was used before other professions were given the buff. All I'm saying is to give a little love to other skills.

itiscurtains · Mar 23, 2012, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Hella too long - needs to be tightened up considerably. I would also drop the whole 'Good Elites vs. Bad Elites' thing - not merely because many of your choices are questionable, but also because what makes a particular elite 'good' is oftentimes completely situational. A skill may be terrific in one scenario but useless in another.
On the other hand, I do think that there is the potential to cover some useful territory here. The Hybrid vs. Dedicated section could be quite valuable to newer players (although the attribute splits on the sample ST's are bad). Simple topics like 'Where to put rezzes?' or 'E-management' might also be worthwhile.
Then again, I kind of feel as though this has all been covered before in previous stickies.

Gabs88 · Mar 23, 2012, 04:11 AM // 04:11

Doesn't matter how much it needs to be tightened up. OP clearly has no clue about how to make an effective hero team. This far pretty much everything that has been written is straight out misleading.

Thenameless Wonder · Mar 23, 2012, 04:30 AM // 04:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by itiscurtains

Hella too long - needs to be tightened up considerably. I would also drop the whole 'Good Elites vs. Bad Elites' thing - not merely because many of your choices are questionable, but also because what makes a particular elite 'good' is oftentimes completely situational. A skill may be terrific in one scenario but useless in another.
On the other hand, I do think that there is the potential to cover some useful territory here. The Hybrid vs. Dedicated section could be quite valuable to newer players (although the attribute splits on the sample ST's are bad). Simple topics like 'Where to put rezzes?' or 'E-management' might also be worthwhile.
Then again, I kind of feel as though this has all been covered before in previous stickies.

Yes, I am looking into scraping/fixing up this thread. My original idea did not go as well as I would have hoped and it seems to lose focus on the real intention of this thread. Expect an entirely new thread when I have time to finish it.

Lanier · Mar 23, 2012, 04:35 AM // 04:35

A lot of your suggestions are highly questionable, but im just going to focus on the paragon suggestons.

Angelic Bond, Crippling anthem, song of restoration, and cautery signet are all pretty bad in PvE. So is incoming for general PvE use (it hardly helps out during battles at all...). Anthem of fury is only good if you have at least 3 adrenaline users in the team. While not great, the power is yours is certainly better that most other para elites. Song of purification is pretty good too (though it is hampered by the lack of good motivation non-elite skills).

To be honest, I think you need to learn more about paragons and paragon skills before trying to make suggestions about them in a guide.